Wishlist Rules Update

[Wrenn]

The rules concerning Wishlists have been updated, please read rules 17, 18, and 19.

[Dibble]

The new rule 18 is pretty unfair.

An example:

Dibble (26):

1: BLM Hands
2: BLM Body

Dennis (10):

1. BLM Body
2. BLM Feet

Quite simply put - if we do the NM that drops the BLM Hand Seals before we do the NM that drops the BLM Body seals, I will get both items.

Even if Dennis and I both have perfect attendance in that period - he has no chance.

Admittedly, 26 vs 10 is a bit of a gap, but the difference need only be 6 points.

I understand the principle for the rule but most people would expect to get their Prio 1 without getting leapfrogged.

As much as a it's a slightly complex caveat to the rule I don't think anyone should get a NEW Prio 1 item.

[Dibble]

I'd also like to know why rule 18 has been introduced?

The Prio system was pretty egalitarian as points systems go. Messing with Prios makes it basically a glorified points system.

[Johng]

Gotta say i'm with dibble on this, our current point system has been working well, people have been getting what they most wanted and theres been no one jumped over or out lotted. This new system seem to purely benifit the people who are clearing their wishlists outside the ls and allowing them to outlot people who wanted an item more therefore posted it as a higher priority.

[Sigfreid]

I agree with dibble and JG on this too, wishlists are there for the LS, if you go and complete a item, then grats, but you still set that item as your #1 prio, this order should be locked til you can change it

plus you can't really go about changing a wishlist system that could potentially benefit certain people more than others, while the wishlists are locked

[Keoko]

Just found this posted by Lacud

"Re: New Wishlists for Heroes of Abyssea
Lecaud on Mon Jan 17, 2011 5:33 pm


Tried to post this somewhere else, but just to clarify and the reasons for this. Af3+2 items need to be listed seperatly even if they use the same coin/jewel etc you can technically upgrade in any order you like but im assuming you would do prio 1>2 etc. This is to allow other ppl with the chance to lot on the item aswell ie.

RDM and BLM use the same if you have these listed as one thing you are technically up for 12 say meaning you get 12 before the next person if you have enough points.
If they are listed seperatly then after you gain enough for one then someone else with the same level of prio gets a chance before you start your second at a lower prio.



PPL are welcome to farm some outside and we can not control that so if you go farm all your +2s there is nothing we can do about it doesnt mean we can move your lower prio up to replace it you need to wait till the next wishlists."


Just thought this revelant that it had been considered in the past that the above should not happen, so why the change?

Cheers

[Wrenn]

Because it has become apparent that several members who have farmed/finished their main prio's on their own, find themselves unable to spend points because they can not access drops for their lower prio items, as they are way down the list for them. While clearing the way for others by clearing out their own top prio's. So they are letting other members benefit from them clearing out prio's, but not getting anything themselves in return.

Because they are unable to spend their points, they get nothing from the LS, while their points keep on climbing. This will eventually put them in the position where they no longer wish to attend the LS, as they aren't getting anything from it, so they feel they are just helping others and not gaining anything themselves, being taken for granted. So while we are keeping some members happy, we are effectively scaring others away.

To combat this, we have decided to let Prio's move up. This will let those members actually spend their points, so their points will drop and even out with everyone elses points, also making them unable in the long run to use their hoarded points to claim lots of drops, as their points will have been spent.

We also hope to encourage other members to complete seal sets on their own this way, as they as well will get the benefit of their prio's moving up (and clearing their prio's away for other members). It works for everyone.

It has never been the LS's intention of being the sole provider of all your seals, as waits would simply be too long for you to complete all your sets. We would certainly like to get members a good start on seals and gear, and offer an environment for people to tackle harder NM's that they can't handle on their own or in duo's. But we simply can't get everyone everything as fast as they'd like, we don't run enough for that, nor do we want to run more. We want people to still have some free evenings to do whatever they like on the game.

We're not stopping you from farming seals for instance together on those evenings that we don't run as an LS. Quite the contrary, I believe some LS members have banded together through their connection in the LS into smaller groups to farm on our off-nights.

Also, yes, if you farm literally everything from your prio's on your own, then your wishlist will turn up empty and you have to wait till the next wishlists may be made. But if you do that, then I think you need to rethink which items you want to get from the LS if you have listed the ones that you know you can solo/duo. I'd advice you to put a little more thought into your wishlist then.

It is highly unlikely that a lot of members will clear literally everything on their own though (yes, I know some are getting quite close to it xD). But I'd like to give those people the chance as well to get items from the LS, so they feel they can get something as well from us, instead of only aiding others.

[Dibble]

Because it has become apparent that several members who have farmed/finished their main prio's on their own, find themselves unable to spend points because they can not access drops for their lower prio items, as they are way down the list for them. While clearing the way for others by clearing out their own top prio's. So they are letting other members benefit from them clearing out prio's, but not getting anything themselves in return.

Because they are unable to spend their points, they get nothing from the LS, while their points keep on climbing. This will eventually put them in the position where they no longer wish to attend the LS, as they aren't getting anything from it, so they feel they are just helping others and not gaining anything themselves, being taken for granted. So while we are keeping some members happy, we are effectively scaring others away.

We all just remade our lists about 6 weeks ago. If these "several members" made their list and then farmed their top prios on their own time... well, that wasn't too bright was it?

Personally, I would rather see an exception made for these "several members" than have the entire points system changed to benefit them under these regrettable circumstances. Some people are going to get totally screwed by this change.

If we're really all "friends" here then friends would be understanding and make an exception. Maybe a points deduction might also be in order to accompany this exception since the fault really lies with the "several members".

Instead, "several members" have caused a change to the whole system.

I wouldn't like to see a change like that on my behalf.

[Wrenn]

Exceptions won't work, as that will lead to favoritism, rules need to be the same for everyone.

We also need to keep everyone happy, not just the ones who benefit from others clearing away prio's above them.

And well, the game is changing. Back when Abyssea started people weren't able to low-man NM's like they can now, they weren't able to duo NM's for seals like they can now. We need to compensate for that, rules that are outdated need to be changed, or we'll lose members.

Quite a few members simply don't have the jobs to be able to duo NM's, so they are more reliant on the LS, but it will be the people that can duo that we risk of losing, and it's those very same members that help the LS the most. If we lost those members on those key jobs, then it's going to take a long time to rebuild the LS to what it can do now, if it will be rebuild at all. So a compromise had to be made. I have to keep everyone happy to keep the LS together, not just the ones that rely on more help, so changes are needed, some will be liked more than others. But you'll most likely not get your gear any slower than you would have before. Hell, if people clear their own Prio's more like that, even if only partially, you'll most likely get your gear faster as well, even with Prio's shifting.

Also, it is not their fault. If the game makes you able to low-man NM's more effectively than with an entire LS, then why not do it? Why not take advantage of the game? We all want our gear, and everyone would like it sooner rather than later.

[Johng]

I understand the need to try and make rules to keep everyone happy but i've always believed the best thing about priority lists is that you list what you want most from the ls and if you want something more than someone else you should get it before them.

This new system totally circumvents the point of listing things in the order you want them most, and while i'm sure it keeps the members who are clearing their lists outside the ls happy it clearly isn't keeping the people who can only get small amounts of time online and choose to spend that time in the ls happy.

It doesn't take alot to look at a piece of gear or an NM and decide whether your likely to be able to get that piece with/without the ls, and so common sense when all members are posting the lists would ensure that everyone has something to be working towards while in the ls.

[Johng]

Also while we're on the new rules, why has the rule about passing your listed stuff and lotting it ffa been added if we're encouraging people to be spending points? As we saw last night the new rule enables people to get the stuff they want for free if they know no one else has that job leveled, while i'm not really seeing any benifits, if you want something enough to list it you should be willing to spend points on it in my opinion

[Sigfreid]

you can get up to 3 points per run, if your not willing to pay a point for a seal that you have put onto your own prio list, then why bother having a points system at all?

[Wrenn]

Items you have put on your list, may have greatly de-valued in the few weeks since writing your list, or other better gear may be found.

Look at say... Sagacity Lappas for example. Still a great item, and when I first made my list on the previous round, I wanted it on there. However, within weeks the NM was farmed so often, that the price of Sagacity Lappas on AH had dropped to around 20k. I would then never have wished to spend 10 points on it anymore, not even 5 points. Instead I just bought it weeks later when the price had dropped even more, it now stands at around 5k on the AH.

Or you may find that no one else is listed for the seals you want, so you may want to try for them for free, at the risk of being out-lotted by someone else of course.

[Dibble]

Not being able to lot gear that you can buy on the ah for 5k just cos your list is locked for 2 months does suck.

Put like that this rule does make more sense but I think this comes down to doing your research when you make your list. Some people list stuff that is 100% drop and AH able - that stuff is going to devalue very, very fast.

However, I do think that applying this rule to seals does make it very easy for "the only SCH in the LS"* to clean up and not pay points.

Also, since seals are only one point if you've listed it, you should pay.

More broadly if the new rule was only applied to non-Rare/Ex gear that would make it a bit fairer.

*I know a SCH who got full relic for nothing in exactly the same circumstances.

[Wrenn]

I'm pretty much the only active SCH in the LS and got those seals on FFA without listing the seals, so that works regardless of whether you've listed them or not.

[Dibble]

I'm pretty much the only active SCH in the LS and got those seals on FFA without listing the seals, so that works regardless of whether you've listed them or not.

I was talking about my mate Kanbe when we ran Dyna with Hustlers...

[Wrenn]

I did that as well in Hustlers, 5/5 relic when I was SCH40 xD

[Dibble]

Rule 16: If you feel you've made a mistake in Wishlisting an item, items can be removed from Wishlists. Slots opened up in this manner can't be refilled and slots below them won't move up.

and

Rule 18: Once an item has been obtained, Prio's beneath it will be moved up a slot.

---

So:

• when you get gear from the LS your prios can still move up
  
• when you get gear from outside the LS your prios can still move up
  
• if you decide you don't want a certain piece of gear from the LS your prio can't move up

That seems to disproportionally penalize people for not taking gear from the LS.

I understand that Rule 16 is to stop people manipulating the lists to their advantage but Rule 18 has made a bit of a joke of the prio system already.

.:EDIT:.

What I mean by that is, people can get gear outside the LS in order to raise their position in the lists for other gear. This is "encouraged" by the LS.

But you can't say you don't want a piece of gear and receive the same benefits - even though the effect on other players is identical to if you had got the gear?

[Havster]

To stop people simply removing and adding bits depending on upcoming runs.

Say I knew (as there is now a schedule in place) that I would be up for an item if I got rid of prio 1 and 2 because in this cycles trip to say attohwa I didnt get them, I could make my prio 3 my new number 1 in an upcoming zone, you could manipulate the system easily and in the next cycle, when wishlist is then avail for refreshing again, you could re-add said items.

[Dibble]

To stop people simply removing and adding bits depending on upcoming runs.

Say I knew (as there is now a schedule in place) that I would be up for an item if I got rid of prio 1 and 2 because in this cycles trip to say attohwa I didnt get them, I could make my prio 3 my new number 1 in an upcoming zone, you could manipulate the system easily and in the next cycle, when wishlist is then avail for refreshing again, you could re-add said items.

Exactly. But you could do exactly the same by getting the two pieces of gear outside the ls under rule 18.

[Havster]

But if you have obtained and GOT the item then you arent manipulating the system by re applying them to your list for next cycle.

I dont actually understand why you are saying "Exactly" as its not the same thing at all, unless my post didnt read properly?

Youve actually OBTAINED the item meaning someone else in the shell can now obtain it instead of you and you wont be manipulating anything in the prios so that you are prio 1 again for it next cycle.

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